Curse

JDRyder · Jul 21, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

Very true. Sometimes, it's not about what class, but how many of each class too. Ursan solved that to some extent that any class could use it, wit the caveat that each class is still a little different as far as AL and stances go.

Ursan solved nothing. Your only using Ursan when you play it, not war,ele.para,mesmer etc and has made less of a point for pve'ers of having any thing else but R8+ ursan. People dont feel the need to make new chars of other classes most the time cause they only need ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

You're talking about an elite area. I'm not saying "warriors are bad" by any means, but what works well in an area, especially an elite area, is what people will take. If you're taking up a spot with a class that's less useful in that area, then I suppose he has every right to refuse and ask you to take a different class or someone else.

Who knows, If his Guild leader let him take something different it may work so well they start to always what 1. if it phails, oh well

upier · Jul 21, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Ursan solved nothing. Your only using Ursan when you play it, not war,ele.para,mesmer etc and has made less of a point for pve'ers of having any thing else but R8+ ursan. People dont feel the need to make new chars of other classes most the time cause they only need ursan.

Then let's add ALL PvE only skills to that list.
My ritualist and my mesmer share half their skillbar. (And the rest of the bar is pretty much just a bunch of filler skills - because everything pretty much dies after going through the 4 shared skills.)

Ohh and the way HoM works - who would even bother playing multiple characters? Unless of course you are playing for fun - in which case - I doubt you are using Ursan. (Not that Ursan can't be fun - but the people who play for fun usually don't perceive it as fun.)

JDRyder · Jul 21, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Then let's add ALL PvE only skills to that list.
My ritualist and my mesmer share half their skillbar. (And the rest of the bar is pretty much just a bunch of filler skills - because everything pretty much dies after going through the 4 shared skills.)

Ohh and the way HoM works - who would even bother playing multiple characters? Unless of course you are playing for fun - in which case - I doubt you are using Ursan. (Not that Ursan can't be fun - but the people who play for fun usually don't perceive it as fun.)

no cause other pve skills dont fully change your bar.

creative, and the more classes you play the better you understand the game

Seventh_Samurai · Jul 21, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Ursan solved nothing. Your only using Ursan when you play it, not war,ele.para,mesmer etc and has made less of a point for pve'ers of having any thing else but R8+ ursan. People dont feel the need to make new chars of other classes most the time cause they only need ursan.

Oh? Hardly. Stances/Shouts still work through Ursan, and AL is still different, and thus people preferring W/Me, or P/Me to other classes for Ursan. And, as upier was saying, look at the PvE skills. I think the greater tragedy here is not Ursan, or PvE skills, but the fact that PvE skills are tied to titles. Why play more than one class when to use any PvE skills (aside from those tied to Lux/Kurz) you need to grind, grind, grind to get them up to a useful level, Ursan included?

If anet wanted a real "solution", they would essentially make PvE like PvP. No, I don't mean fighting other players, but sharing everything across characters...and I mean everything. Map exploration, experience, towns, missions, armor, skill unlocks (PvE unlocks could still be kept different from PvP unlocks, but once you got it on one PvE character, you could get it on all your other PvE characters as well), quests, rep titles, sunspear & lightbringer titles...everything.

Obviously, this will not happen for a multitude of reasons. First off, it's too big of a change too late in the game. The game's economy would suffer as well as there would be less demand all around, tomes in particular. And, how would end of game weapons work then? There are a few monetary incentives for anet to not do this as well. Why would you buy more character slots when you can easily remake a PvE character as a different class and have everything, save for maybe a weapon/offhand, already at your disposal? While it's an interesting thought, anything that's harmful to their business model won't make it into the game.

JDRyder · Jul 21, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

Oh? Hardly. Stances/Shouts still work through Ursan, and AL is still different, and thus people preferring W/Me, or P/Me to other classes for Ursan. And, as upier was saying, look at the PvE skills. I think the greater tragedy here is not Ursan, or PvE skills, but the fact that PvE skills are tied to titles. Why play more than one class when to use any PvE skills (aside from those tied to Lux/Kurz) you need to grind, grind, grind to get them up to a useful level, Ursan included?

That agrees with what i said, why make more chars? Soon as you get a high level ursan why make any more cause im pretty sure if you liked the grind your playing Wow or something and the other pve skills are not a NEED, you have to be a high level Ursan to be in most groups but dont need to have pve skills really if ursan didnt exist.

the other pve skills dont change your whole bar when you use them, and im not sure what they have to do with any of the OQ or RQs

upier · Jul 21, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

no cause other pve skills dont fully change your bar.

Raven and Volfen?

Snow Bunny · Jul 21, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Raven and Volfen?

No one uses them, they're irrelevant.

It's like that foolish PvE skill for the Assassin that blinds yourself.
When talking about balance in a format, you really should stick to discussing what is viable and what is overpowered.

If Ursan were to be nerfed into oblivion, the other Blessings would not be picked up immediately if at all.

upier · Jul 21, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

No one uses them, they're irrelevant.

It's like that foolish PvE skill for the Assassin that blinds yourself.
When talking about balance in a format, you really should stick to discussing what is viable and what is overpowered.

If Ursan were to be nerfed into oblivion, the other Blessings would not be picked up immediately if at all.

That's beside the point.
He's stating that Ursan is bad because it removes class diversity.
Raven and Volfen do the same thing. Yet we don't consider them a problem.
Which makes me wonder how solid his argument that "Ursan is bad because it removes the skillbar with a pre-set one" is.

Snow Bunny · Jul 21, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That's beside the point.
He's stating that Ursan is bad because it removes class diversity.
Raven and Volfen do the same thing. Yet we don't consider them a problem.
Which makes me wonder how solid his argument that "Ursan is bad because it removes the skillbar with a pre-set one" is.

It's not beside the point.

Ursan is bad because it removes class diversity and is powerful enough to negate class diversity.

5 Ursans, 1 assassin and 2 HB monks are more powerful than 1 imbagon, 1 earthshaker, a couple dervs, etc. if you will it, I'm making a comparison between an Ursan FoW team and a physically powered FoW team.

However, that physical team is more powerful than 5 Volfens, 1 assassin and 2 HB monks.

Volfen eliminates class diversity, yet it's not actually powerful enough to supplant traditional classes. It doesn't actually get used often at all (I can't say I've ever used it aside from the one quest) and thus a group of physicals or even PvE-skill powered tank'spank still will beat it.

Ursan is wrong for the game because it eliminates class diversity while simultaenously being powerful enough to justify that. The other blessings do not.

upier · Jul 21, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's not beside the point.

Ursan is bad because it removes class diversity and is powerful enough to negate class diversity.

5 Ursans, 1 assassin and 2 HB monks are more powerful than 1 imbagon, 1 earthshaker, a couple dervs, etc. if you will it, I'm making a comparison between an Ursan FoW team and a physically powered FoW team.

However, that physical team is more powerful than 5 Volfens, 1 assassin and 2 HB monks.

Volfen eliminates class diversity, yet it's not actually powerful enough to supplant traditional classes. It doesn't actually get used often at all (I can't say I've ever used it aside from the one quest) and thus a group of physicals or even PvE-skill powered tank'spank still will beat it.

Ursan is wrong for the game because it eliminates class diversity while simultaenously being powerful enough to justify that. The other blessings do not.

If "eliminating class diversity" would be the reason why Ursan is bad - then Raven would be bad also. Hell, the fact that I run 1/2 of my skillbar using the same skills on my mesmer and ritualist - would also fit in the same category.
It's not.
So let's stop selling it that way.
Ursan is bad because it's too strong. And not because you're playing an Ursan when you should be playing a mesmer.

Ursan isn't bad because it eliminates classes (actually that would be it's STRONG point!), nor is it bad because it's tied to a grinded title (otherwise Winds would also be considered a problem), it's not bad because it promotes idiotic play (Hello SR!) - it's bad because it's obscenely overpowered in an all-Ursan group setting.

Snow Bunny · Jul 21, 2008, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If "eliminating class diversity" would be the reason why Ursan is bad - then Raven would be bad also. Hell, the fact that I run 1/2 of my skillbar using the same skills on my mesmer and ritualist - would also fit in the same category.
It's not.
So let's stop selling it that way.
Ursan is bad because it's too strong. And not because you're playing an Ursan when you should be playing a mesmer.

Upier, did you at all read my post, or did you just skim it?

In my previous post I completely addressed what you mentioned in this post; Raven and Volfen are not used because they are not strong enough to replace traditional professions.

If they were, they'd be in the same league as Ursan, but they're not.

JDRyder · Jul 21, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Raven and Volfen?

they are just as bad imo and id also be happy to see them suck even more

Funny thing is, i almost added them in to my last post here but said "meh people will get the point of what i was trying to say and add them in as well, no need to add them in to the post" Im not a fan of any pve skill that replaces your bar, people need to be more creative imo.

Anet needs to make a new game called ursan wars, and get rid of it in guild wars. I like guild wars cause of all the build etc you can use, not cause theres a pve skill that make being creative useless.

Seventh_Samurai · Jul 21, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Anet needs to make a new game called ursan wars, and get rid of it in guild wars.

Now *that* would be one hell of a game...all ursans...no healing...win!

JDRyder · Jul 21, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

Now *that* would be one hell of a game...all ursans...no healing...win!

i hope that your agreeing and thats just a joke

upier · Jul 22, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Upier, did you at all read my post, or did you just skim it?

In my previous post I completely addressed what you mentioned in this post; Raven and Volfen are not used because they are not strong enough to replace traditional professions.

If they were, they'd be in the same league as Ursan, but they're not.

Please share with me here you find an indicator that the strength of the build is what makes it broken (in the following argument which is what I was replying to):

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Ursan solved nothing. Your only using Ursan when you play it, not war,ele.para,mesmer etc and has made less of a point for pve'ers of having any thing else but R8+ ursan. People dont feel the need to make new chars of other classes most the time cause they only need ursan.

All I see is him basing his argument on the fact that the skill replaces your skillbar and it's broken because of that. And he confirms that with:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

they are just as bad imo and id also be happy to see them suck even more
Funny thing is, i almost added them in to my last post here but said "meh people will get the point of what i was trying to say and add them in as well, no need to add them in to the post" Im not a fan of any pve skill that replaces your bar, people need to be more creative imo.

Ursan is just as bad Raven/Vofen. Which means that they need to get trashed along with Ursan.

Unless of course - he is wrong and Ursan is broken because of different reasons. (Which would be my bet and what you suggested when you brought it's strength to the table.)

cellardweller · Jul 22, 2008, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

...

The reasons are not mutually exclusive:
1) Ursan is broken because its overpowered, so is every other overpowered skill/game feature . It needs to be fixed along with other things like SR minion sharing, perma shadowform or bodyblocking.
2) Ursan is broken because it replaces your skillbar, so are volfen and raven. It needs to be fixed along with the other 2 skillbar replacing skills.
3) Ursan is broken because its power level is based on grind. All the other PvE skills are just as broken and need to have their grind based power removed.

Ursan just happens to take the trifecta so it gets the most attention.

upier · Jul 22, 2008, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The reasons are not mutually exclusive:
1) Ursan is broken because its overpowered, so is every other overpowered skill/game feature . It needs to be fixed along with other things like SR minion sharing, perma shadowform or bodyblocking.
2) Ursan is broken because it replaces your skillbar, so are volfen and raven. It needs to be fixed along with the other 2 skillbar replacing skills.
3) Ursan is broken because its power level is based on grind. All the other PvE skills are just as broken and need to have their grind based power removed.

Ursan just happens to take the trifecta so it gets the most attention.

Ohh I completely forgot about that.
(Probably because I really hate that logic.
Based on that - the C3 Wurm is broken. BUT since it's used in a small part of the game only it's fine.
Seed of Life didn't replace your skillbar yet it was still nerfed.
Foes dealing 400+ (or 1k damage) are broken - but because the AI is stupid it's fine.
And now Ursan does all 3 BUT it helps get unwanted classes into parties.)

cellardweller · Jul 22, 2008, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Based on that - the C3 Wurm is broken. BUT since it's used in a small part of the game only it's fine.

Of course the wurm are broken you can happily 3 man any area HM in them and it is for that reason that I don't play in the desolation. The difference between it and ursan is that jundu doesn't affect my gameplay while I'm not in a desolation area.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Seed of Life didn't replace your skillbar yet it was still nerfed.

Not mutually exclusive remember. Seed of Life was and still is broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Foes dealing 400+ (or 1k damage) are broken - but because the AI is stupid it's fine.

Foes dealing 1k damage is not a problem because everyone faces the same challenge hence it is balanced - if players faced different bosses that were easier by orders of magnitude just because they equipped on particular team build and had previously killed a prescribed number of foes then it would be broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And now Ursan does all 3 BUT it helps get unwanted classes into parties.)

I used Norgu to keep myself clean while doing Gloom and Razah as a splinter engine - if they are able to complete elite areas, players have no reason not to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snow bunny

Warriors - Dslash SY!/Earthshaker
Dervish - Avatar of Lyssa/Dwayna physical damage
Ranger - GDW/Splinter Barrage
Monk - healzzzzzz
Mesmer - CoP faceripping aoe
Ele - traditional blow-shit-up class; will always find a place somewhere
Assassin - MS/DB spam w/ Crit Agility; ridiculously high damage
Paragon - imbagon
Ritualist - splinter barrage
Necromancer - hex spam

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

Warriors - Tripplechop - nothing unloads unleashes the fury of a multi-splinter team faster.
Dervish - Despite being armour observant the VoS derv still pulls out a very impressive 120+dps. A wounding strike condition/damage engine too is a great frontliner. For the more timid, you can always stand at the back and be an orders/partyheal spammer.
Ranger - BHA is always helpful.
Monk - protzzzz
Mesmer - More subtle than CoP, but almost as effective is the Fevered Dreams template.
Ele - Mind Blast/Ether Renewal gives endless options for both normal or pve skill spammage.
Assassin - The only thing that can approach a death blossom sin for dps is a MoP nec. If you get bored of that, you've always got the crit scythe template to fall back on.
Paragon - Motivation spearagon takes over the partywide heals and/or battery support while still maintaining strong ranged dps.
Ritualist - I'd skip the barrage bit, Splinter is godly and most rit builds I'd come up with would focus on maintaining that on as many physicals as possible.
Necromancer - The AP/MoP template has the single highest dps in the game at the moment, but even if that role is filled Necro's have countess other options.

JDRyder · Jul 22, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

All I see is him basing his argument on the fact that the skill replaces your skillbar and it's broken because of that. And he confirms that with:

o i never said it was not overpowered, Ive said it was in other threads and this 1 i think. Cause it replaces your skill bar is the main reason i don't like it, I understand theres always going to be a changing overpowered meta and this 1 has going on for 2 long. Theres no point to have any thing other than a monk and a war for the people that use ursan, and that fuels the lack of creative, and knowledge on other classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Ursan is just as bad Raven/Vofen. Which means that they need to get trashed along with Ursan.

id like to seem them all deleted

Hyper Cutter · Jul 22, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Raven and Volfen aren't overpowered. Hell, they'd barely be worth using even if Ursan didn't massively overshadow them...